Shaahin Cheyene - Pioneer of Digital Vaporization w/ Joseph Panetta

Shaahin is regarded as one of the most perceptive business leaders, identifying trends and patterns early on the Amazon platform to assist others in understanding how these shifts affect markets and consumer behavior. Shaahin unfolded in this episode how he went on to invent Digital Vaporization, the forerunner of today's vapes, and launch a number of successful businesses, despite a couple notable failures.

An Air-Force brat, Joseph was born in Panama’s Canal Zone and was bilingual from birth. Moving to Mississippi offered him the experiential lens for the greater part of America: how they think, feel, shop. Educated in Stockholm and Paris, as his language skills grew so did his world view, particularly his understanding of the female consumer. Raised by a woman, his experience was always through the female lens.

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

vaporizer, vaporization, patents, people, built, plant, device, heat, technology, smoke, cannabis, vape, burn, big, vaporize, talking, drugs, digital, oils, ceramic

SPEAKERS

Shaahin Cheyene, Joseph Paneta, Intro

Intro  00:00

You're now listening to Hack & Grow Rich with Shaahin Cheyene, and his co host Bart Baggett, where we discuss hacking your way to success and the unconventional paths to unreasonable success with the people who've been there. And now the author of billion how I became king of the thrill pill, Colt Shang Shan

Joseph Paneta  00:26

Hello, on behalf of ice fire, I'm Joseph Panetta. And today I have the pleasure of talking with Shaahin Cheyenne, the author, inventor, Amazon expert, podcaster and noted entrepreneur, and I emphasize noted because if you happen to have read his autobiography billion, and what a wild ride it is, I might add, you will know that his journey of entrepreneurship began at the tender age of 15. The thrust of this book actually centers around your creation of illegal drug that was called the thrill pill cult, but specifically herbal ecstasy, and the genius behind your approach of finding a niche and marketing and feeding that niche with something that was legal and catapulting sales to close to a billion dollars before your 18th birthday. I mean, that creation was pretty much considered one of the first nootropics if I'm not mistaken, just Bravo, I'm so delighted to speak with you about about Vampir and the creation of the vaporizer. But I just had to pause on billion because amazing.

Shaahin Cheyene  01:33

Well, thanks so much. And thanks for having me on. Joseph, I appreciate you and the kind words,

Joseph Paneta  01:38

of course. So since herbal ecstasy, you've moved on to accomplish even more, right, we have the whole Amazon business. And it's not just that you've created a business that's thriving for you, but you're helping others achieve their goals on Amazon. And that's, you know, amazing, you've been a filmmaker, and the topic of today's interview, the inventor of the Vapir vaporizer. And you know, I just want to say again, thank you so much for coming on. We appreciate you joining us. And there's so so much I would want to discuss with you. But today we're gonna focus on the invention of the vape here. Knowing you these past few years having read the book, you describe that light bulb moment for herbal ecstasy. Let me see if I recall how you summed it up. In the rave culture at the time you saw that people were taking herbal supplements and people were taking drugs. And you reason that by creating a legal drug that mimics the effects of the illegal drugs, folks would find that appealing. Is that about

02:39

right? Yeah, that's right.

Joseph Paneta  02:41

So can you take us back to the beginning with the vaporizer? What was it about that idea that sparked your lightbulb moment in the development of this item.

02:55

So

Shaahin Cheyene  02:56

coming out of herbal ecstasy in the rave electronic music dancing at that time, I went on to Herbalife see was winding down, I wanted to solve a bigger problem or what I saw as a bigger problem. And I realized that people have been smoking for 1000s of years creating smoke tar and carbon monoxide the three toxic elements that are derivatives carcinogenic elements, meaning cancer causing coming from smoking, just to get a little bit of the active element. And at the time I had a girlfriend who smoked and I thought to myself, Man, you know, it's kind of stupid. I was never a smoker. And I was never a big pothead ever I you know, tried it a few few times. In my youth really wasn't my thing. But I thought to myself, Man, if there was a way, what if we could get all the stuff that we want out of it, get the cannabinoids, get the nicotine get all that great stuff out without burning yet? Could we just forego all the carcinogenic elements and have the cleaner way to ingest what we want? And the answer was nobody knew it didn't exist. And I went about checking out what technology was out there and what was available. And I came across the thought of vaporization. Now people had been building crude vaporizers for a while and I say crude, because these vaporizers at some point actually burned your material, but they didn't burn it as much as exposing it to an open flame. So from my research, it turns out that burning something you heat it up to 1200 degrees, you cause it to combust, you create smoke tar, carbon monoxide, all this other stuff and you're ingesting the smoke with some of the oils and the terpenes and the alkaloids and all the stuff that you want very in efficient. Turns out that if you heat that same plant matter to a much low temperature 300 degrees, 200 degrees 400 degrees. After that it starts to burn. But if you heat it up to that temperature, it'll release the volatile oils, it'll release the cannabinoids, the THC, the nicotine. But what you don't get is all the stuff that comes with the smoke because you're not burning it. Now the challenge the problem is, how do you control the temperature because temperature as we know, once given energy continues to rise, and even when you turn it off, it doesn't cool down immediately, just like if you turn the the heat off under your, your boiling water, the water boils for a few seconds longer. And that extra few seconds or minutes that the heat is still there that heat that heat is still boiling, can cause your material to burn causing smoke, and carbon monoxide, which you're back to where you started. So I went about developing that technology in the core of our patents that I that I developed and they're cited now and all the all the people that are building vapes, if you look my name up, you'll see that they cite my patents in their, their patents as former, we were really on the ground floor of this turns out that if you have a method for removing the plant matter from the heating source, you can stop it from being burned. So the first element of my patents that I built around vaporization was the removal of the heating element. The second component of it was the ability to regulate temperature. Now I'm going to explain to you there's a difference between what we see now as vape pens. And what I developed, which was digital vaporization vape pens came later. Basically the first device and funny enough is I found one in my garage. I think this is the only one that I own. Now, it came in this massive box it was it was huge. You know, I think probably larger than a ketchup bottle. But it was really cool. So we can do a little unboxing of it. Oh, wow. So came in a backpack, we had this custom backpack. This is a brand new one, I feel like I'm going back in time because it's really is a time capsule. And let me see if I could pull one out. I don't even know if this is intact. And yet another bag. That was people would be used using these and they could travel around this was this was the convenience but the technology hadn't been built. So this was really the advancement of that era. This is the first portable digital vaporizer. There it is size of a ketchup bottle. And first

Joseph Paneta  07:40

portable digital vaporizer, what year are we talking about?

Shaahin Cheyene  07:44

This one was probably late 90s, early 2000 I think maybe 2000. I came out with this, maybe somewhere around there. And you'll notice the our patent is this drawer that pulls out. And you would put your herbs in a disc the disc goes in that I was another one of my patents was herbs on disk. And then you put it in here. And I mean this one. Yeah, clearly it doesn't work. This is you know, 20 years old. But yeah, and then there's a digital readout. The first of its the first of its kind, and you would inhale through here or through a tube that you put in there. And then I remember Yeah, I mean, we use all kinds of fancy things like LEDs were not a thing we use them. There's literally cobwebs in here, I'll funny when I was, I was I was very big on building this. And this feels like it feels like a nice device. But the point is, so we had two parts to our patents, one was being able to remove the plant matter from the heat source to prevent it from getting burned manually. And the second was a digital temperature readout. That allowed us to control the temperature with a thermo regulator so that the plants it was all around you don't want to burn these plants. So you want to do it at a low temperature. What now is a vapes is they came out with an idea, which actually was my idea back in the day was hey, you can take a source material like glycerin that vaporizes very quickly add some of your oils to that you'd have to get an extract in oils, and then you could vaporize whatever you want. CBD whatever. Why? Because this device vaporizes the entire plant. It does not separate the plant from its elements. You don't need oils, it will vaporize oils, but it's primarily designed to vaporize plant material in order to do that. You need a fairly large battery. I don't know if this one has a battery or not. Oh yeah, it does. Man. Oh wow. stuffs falling apart. But um, so this has a fairly large battery. This this really is like 20 years old, so I'm not going to take it apart right now. But it has a fairly large battery and you need that because you need to be able to find a way to get the heat produced heat is very expensive way to get energy. So heat is a very inefficient user of energy. So that's why it was this big. But with a small cigarette, which is what they use, now, you can use a little button battery, if it's liquid liquid volatize is very quickly, much more so than solid. So that's, that's the reason why, you know, we, we developed this, we designed it, we made it so big, and we were selling them all day long. This was a 499 device. So it was almost $500 400 $500. And something like this cost us about 40 bucks to make. And so once again, we were printing money when we were making these things, pretty cool. By the way, I, I no longer am affiliated with this company, or associated with it. So it's a public company. And I don't think they make this device anymore. But I can talk about it, which I think still is one of the best vaporizers that one's ever made.

Joseph Paneta  11:04

That's incredible, you know, so many thoughts are running through my mind. Um, you started this, you know, knowing that you left school, when you did at a very young age, you developed a business, it became a runaway success. You morphed into doing this. To hear you talk today, you sound a little bit like an engineer or physicist, right. But I know that you didn't have those classes or finish those classes. So a lot of this was self taught, am I right?

Shaahin Cheyene  11:33

Yeah, one of the interesting things that I think most people don't understand is that you don't have to be a graphic designer to have great art. Similarly, with technology, you just need to be able to hire specialized knowledge. There's lots of people smarter than me, who know how to do engineering who know how to build the parts of the device. And one of the things now I'm looking at this, which is super interesting, which I don't know if they're doing now is that I made sure that none of the parts of this device that we built came in touch with the plastic components of it because I didn't believe in heating up the plastic. So if you look inside the device, this is all ceramic. So we built ceramic, there's glass there steel inside here, going through the sun looking at this, I'm like, Dude, I did a fucking great job building this thing. It was a, it was a nice device to build, but you can hire people. So anytime you want to build anything, there's people out there nerds who live on that technology kind of thing. And they'd love to do that.

Joseph Paneta  12:35

Awesome. And you know, it's it's the second thing that occurred to me is removing the plant matter from the heat right from the heat source so that it doesn't burn is exactly what they have morphed into. I don't know if you've looked it up ice fires wand. But it's one of the first to use induction heating, which is exactly what you're talking about, again, with the ceramic and the glass and they were taking a cue from from induction heating used in kitchens for cooking, right? Because to your point, different pieces of the plant material, different oils burn at different rates and heat at different rates. So terpenes made dissipate far more quickly than something like plant material or the cannabinoids or even easic.

Shaahin Cheyene  13:21

Yeah, totally. I'm looking at. Let's see if I can share this here. So I'm looking at this I Spire wand. And it looks interesting. Yeah, once were a thing in the early days, can you see the screen? Joseph? I think yes, yes. In the early days of vaporizers, when they didn't want you know, size matter. This was this was Believe it or not small for a vaporizer when we invented it. There was no portable e cig type of thing. So you know, in the early days, people built a lot of these kinds of wands. And in this one, apparently, it's for dabs and what I understand you dabs weren't around during my day, but what I understand is an incredibly concentrated extract that's in a almost like a crystal form that people use to to vaporize so I can see what the use of this is. I suspect with this, you can't also put plant matter in there. You have to use this crystallized extract this data.

Joseph Paneta  14:23

I believe that's correct. You need some form of a dab. It's not just for flour.

Shaahin Cheyene  14:28

So let's take a look at some of the other stuff. So they've got this wand that they're doing a dab on let's go to shop. Let's see. So they've got DAB devices. So they do exclusively DAB devices. They don't do whole plant vaporisation, is that right? They don't do

Joseph Paneta  14:42

whole plant vaporisation. But they have if you look under disposables, and under the the cartridges eyes fire makes a line of disposables and makes a line of cartridges and their cartridges. The decor is their invention, because it actually has two holes for taking different temperatures. For the two different, you know, needs for heat within the actual oil itself, but that is there in again with the ceramic and the glass. It's it echoes very much the the period mentioned of yours.

Shaahin Cheyene  15:13

Yeah, yeah. So they're using ceramic they're using stances. So it looks like they're using good material. So it looks like a cool looks like a cool product. Joseph.

Joseph Paneta  15:23

So, out of curiosity, when you were doing your research, did you look back over you mentioned that people had been building crude vape devices, which is true. I looked back on Joseph Robinson's first patent on a vaporizing device data into 1927. And then in 1960, Herbert Gilbert came out with a slightly different one, but he couldn't find any takers. Now in the 50s, and 60s, that was the height of you know, Lucky strikes and regular cigarettes, people weren't using any kind of vaporization options. But then by the time 2003 rolls around, which is a few years after you've come to market, a Chinese engineer who wanted to try to quit smoking, or at least take down his two pack a day three pack a day habit, named Han, like, created an e cigarette he was he's widely regarded as like the grandfather of the ecig revolution. But the truth is, the vape here preceded his invention, and may he may have actually taken some inspiration from it.

Shaahin Cheyene  16:23

Yeah, look, there's a lot of guys who had vaporizers in the turn of the century, and they did use herbs in them. So obviously, you know, for colds and that kind of thing, where they take water and they boil it using some type of electrical mechanism, or even fire was the original form of vaporization. What we're talking about is plant vaporization. So if you look at plant vaporisation, there were guys that had patents on that, but none of them really figured it out. There was a guy who went around he was from the 60s, I think he was like a Vietnam War guy. His name was Eagle Barrymore. Korean War guy, okay, yeah. And the guy's name was Eagle bill. And this guy went around the cannabis scene. And Holland, I think he was an expat living in Holland. That's where I met him. And he was espousing vaporization, he had one of those, you know, those big water bottles that you use when you order water, and like water cooler bottles. And what he had was he had like a glass bowl of some kind, and he would heat under the bowl, so the flame wouldn't touch the plant matter. So you're just heating the glass, like the laboratory glass type thing. And then once it got hot enough, he'd remove it, and the smoke or, you know, the vapor would go into the big water cooler thing, and you would inhale it, and he went around everywhere. I think he was a cancer survivor, he had all kinds of issues. And this really helped him because he couldn't inhale smoke. Interestingly enough, we had so many musicians of the 90s, and the early 2000s, who called me and said that the vape here changed their life, because they really needed for whatever reason to have their cannabis. You know, the doctor prescribed it to them, but they couldn't smoke because it would ruin their voice. And this was the only way that they could. So it was interesting times, but there were, look, there were a lot of Eagle build type guys, but nobody that really built out the technology to make it viable. Right, the eagle build thing wouldn't really lead to the pens and all that stuff that came but our technology did.

18:35

You know, and there are two things I want to ask you about

Joseph Paneta  18:36

there. You know, in your Amazon Mastery Course, which I've had the privilege to attend, thank you. You often talk about finding distribution before you create a product, right, find a niche that's hungry for something and then create a way to feed that niche. So I'm curious if that's what you were working with here, like you saw us on need, as you mentioned earlier, like the whole, let's get people away from smoking all the bad stuff. But it sounds like with the musicians and the ego bills of the world. They were actually telegraphing back to you that you had delivered something to that niche that actually worked for them.

Shaahin Cheyene  19:15

Yeah, I think so. I mean, anytime you come out with a new technology, you have early adopters who love the product. I had Silicon Valley investors that loved it, and people that bought it. And then you have people that are really reluctant to get on board with new technology. And you have people that don't understand the technology. So they're kind of like early adopters, potentially, but they're not really early adopters. So we had a lot of people that kind of stuck to the old vaporisation. There were some dudes that were making soldering irons, and they had soldering irons connected to like glass things, and they would heat up the glass with a soldering iron and sometimes the glass would break and, you know, that was one way way that people were vaporizing it and it does work, it's just that it works for a certain period of time, if you can't remove the herbs, the from the heating source, then it's a moot point because that heating source is going to continue to heat up even after you remove the heat from it. And if you don't have a digital control to be able to do that, then effectively you are doing something that's just a little bit better than smoking. Not a lot. Got it.

Joseph Paneta  20:28

So that and when you say digital, are you referring to the digital thermal regulator and the vapor is that the was that the sort of differentiating technology?

Shaahin Cheyene  20:36

Yeah, and a digital screen. So you can actually have a readout of how hot things are getting because you might be like, Hey, man, I'm I'm using this particular plant, or this particular variety of cannabis, or CBD, or hemp or whatever. And I know that that from experience that volatilizes, the active elements come out at 342. So you can set that in here, and it has a memory. So you're like, Okay, so 342. So every time I'm using that as 342, but another one that might be more oily, might need 343 for it to vaporize, it might not do anything at 342. Fascinating.

21:11

And, you know,

Joseph Paneta  21:13

you've mentioned in a recent interview that the technology that you created for vapor, and I believe it's this specific that we're talking about it probably the rest of the vape market exists as a result of it that they borrowed from it, or that they've learned from it and kind of build from it. Can you expand on that a

Shaahin Cheyene  21:29

little bit? Yeah, basically, there was no vaporization. Until we came out with this concept, it was something that didn't exist in the market, I tried to solve a problem, I came up with the concept of it. Now there were patents in the field in the area, like you said, since the 1800s, people have been doing different things with vaporization. And trying to make it work. But nobody had made a commercially viable product. And we came out with the first one. So and then this led to us making it smaller and smaller. This is one of the first ones probably the first one. After this. We kept making them smaller and smaller and smaller, until eventually was the size of a cigar. And then we had our prototypes for them to be the size of a cigarette or an e cig. And that's when I sold the company and was out.

22:18

Amazing. So

Joseph Paneta  22:19

like almost all consumer electronics devices, you started off with the large version. And then with each iteration, it became smaller and smaller and smaller.

Shaahin Cheyene  22:28

That's right. Yeah, it's amazing. Yeah, that's amazing. Yeah. And it was a great, it was a great business. You know, this was before USB was a thing. We had a USB port plant in the back, that was going to be able to connect this to your computer, so that your doctor could monitor your dosage or how much you're ingesting that was a big deal back in those days. You know, back now everything has USB, everything is Bluetooth, everything is connected to the web, back then that wasn't really a thing. So this is a very advanced device for its time.

Joseph Paneta  23:03

Absolutely. Um, you know, speaking of like, advanced for its time, it's it. It occurs to me that your entrepreneurial journey has been marked by foresight, your ability to kind of like sense what's coming up or what's coming around the corner with with herbal ecstasy. You knew the drug crowd, right. I'm curious. Did you foresee cannabis consumption growing when you started this project?

Shaahin Cheyene  23:26

Yeah, totally. You know, of course, in that time, Joseph, it was illegal. And it was not legalized yet to be legalized. So there was a lot of problems. We actually got rated vapor got rated a few times by the DEA, but we were so careful. With the claims that we made. We were selling it only as an aromatherapy device. We did not mention cannabis. I purposely had cannabis taken out of my book that I wrote at the time, which was the first book on vaporization. It's called the vapor the art and science of inhaling pure plant essences where I talked about all the science of this stuff. It was a book that came out a long time ago. It's outdated now, but we didn't talk about it. And so when they came in, they rated us. They couldn't do anything. They all they found in our office was High Times magazines. And that was the thing they really tried to be like, Well, if you have High Times Magazine, then you're selling drug paraphernalia, and we were like, No, not exactly. Not exactly. So it was it was an interesting time. But now

Joseph Paneta  24:27

it feels like a little bit of a stretch frankly.

Shaahin Cheyene  24:30

Yeah, yeah, they were reaching they were reaching but a lot of vaporizer companies didn't make it back in those days. A lot of our competitors didn't make it because they were using it for specifically for cannabis advertising it for that. But fortunately, things have gotten more progressive now, especially in California and a lot of these other states were, they're focusing. See,

Joseph Paneta  24:53

since you have this foresight, I'm curious. Where do you see vaping moving in the future. Do you think that Like inhalation is going to be a means of delivery for other things like like medications like, I've seen one vape. That was caffeine, right?

Shaahin Cheyene  25:08

Yeah, I spent a lot of time building this technology for pharma companies as well, all the big pharma companies, all the big tobacco companies were very interested. And I've built several iterations of vaporizers. Using sound sonic technology, there's a way to do it, where you can use sound instead of heat. nebulizer is very common form of vaporization actually uses ultrasound to volatilize plant matter if you see nebulizers, that people that are asthmatics, or that has lung conditions, those use ultrasound, it's got a small ultrasonic transducer. So we built an ultrasonic transducer that could volatilize things like CBD or cannabis, and nicotine. That, it seems to me that when you and again, I'm not talking from any scientific understanding, but it seems to me that when you use a liquid, just for the convenience sake, that liquid is also getting into your lungs. The beauty of using whole plant vaporizers is the fact that you are only taking elements directly from the plant, there's nothing added to the plant. So what you're getting is just those elements, sure, you're getting an oil, a terpene, cannabinoid, THC, whatever it is, that settles on the lungs and goes through the lungs, the lungs are intended only for taking pure clean air, if you can get it. But I think it's one step removed to say, Okay, we're just going to heat it up to get what we need. I think that's fairly benign, in my opinion, assuming the devices are built well enough, when you move into using these liquids, that who knows what's in them, and some companies might have more reliable ones than others. But when you move into the liquids, and you move into the crystals, and you move into the heavily processed materials for the convenience of being able to carry them in a small portable battery operated device, then you approach that problem. And now you know, there's a lot of companies that are making smaller vaporizers. But I always espouse if not smoking anything, but if you're going to do it, you should vaporize. And if you're going to vaporize, you should use a whole plant vaporizer as opposed to an Easter egg or in a vape for health reasons. If you if you

27:28

can. That makes sense. That makes sense. Um, question.

Joseph Paneta  27:35

View was the first company that you took IPO. So my question for you is how long after your patent? Did you go IPO and in this was the first VT company to go IPO? Correct?

Shaahin Cheyene  27:48

I think it was one of the first and I didn't take it IPO I sold the company to a guy that took it public and was not involved in that process with with a peer I exited meeting the investors, the early stage investors we all likes it.

Joseph Paneta  28:04

Got it. Alright. So you know, I'm I often I'm going to refer back to this and thank you for wearing the shirt by the way. But I like and billion to a halfway point between an autobiography and a thinking Grow Rich meets Andrew Carnegie. I mean, in some ways, it reads a bit like a look back. And also a lot of the lessons that you impart which I loved. So I'm curious, given the Vapir was the first you know, IPO? First of a company, no IPO for your first exit? Do you ever look back on it? Like do you keep up with the business in any fashion today?

Shaahin Cheyene  28:43

No, I've been more focused Joseph on the Amazon thing. And you know, I've had press come to me, this is actually the first interview I've done about vaporization. I've had a lot of press come to me asking me about it. You know, I think that information is a little bit conflated about how this industry arose and who invented vaporisation. And I've seen in one of the big magazines, some big timeline, and we were very conveniently removed, the thing they can't remove is our patents. So you can't argue with patents that were filed back in the day. But we were building this technology from from very early on. And really, for me, once I exited, I moved on to doing other things. But I'm very interested in in watching this technology and like you said, delivering something through the lungs is a very efficient mode of taking that thing if you needed to have an immediate effect. It's very effective. So we're seeing pulmonary delivery of all kinds of drugs and also when you take them through the lungs, they may have an entirely different therapeutic effect for certain drugs than if you take them through another method. So all the big pharma companies now because drugs are so expensive to get approved and go through the clinical trials and the double blind studies. They are now and have been looking for new ways to deliver existing drugs. A perfect example of this would be ivermectin that a lot of people are using now are espousing for COVID-19. ivermectin was intended as a different drug. But depending on how they deliver it in different delivery methods, it could have an entirely different use and potentially feasibly be useful for things like COVID-19.

Joseph Paneta  30:29

Yeah, it's interesting how many drugs we have on the market today that started out differently. You know, Rogaine was a blood pressure medication that people took as a tablet and started to grow hair in different parts of their body. So the at the time, it was the precursor to pharmacy and Upjohn, they decided, well, gee, if we apply it topically to the scalp, could it grow hair? And lo and behold, that's how we got Rogaine? Minoxidil.

30:54

No way. Yeah, I know that. That's interesting.

Joseph Paneta  30:59

Yeah, it's it's always interesting to see how a drug started out versus were up in his life. But I agree with you the the delivery systems are probably going to be the next frontier for pharmaceutical medicine.

31:10

Yeah,

Joseph Paneta  31:11

that really concludes my questions for you. Is there anything else you can share with us, as the person who pioneered vaporization that we should think about or look forward to is, as we move ahead in this new decade,

Shaahin Cheyene  31:27

I think start looking for a trend back to whole plant vaporisation. But as technology gets better, and our technology gets smarter, eventually somebody will build a pen sized version right now we have like a pair, we had a marker size one. So it was like a cigar, more or less, that was battery operated. But ultimately, I think, you know, the beautiful thing. The beauty is when somebody can develop a small enough device, that's a true vaporizer, a true digital vaporizer, where you don't have to buy the liquids. And you can just use plant real green herb, or real tobacco. And that's when something really nice is going to happen. I've seen devices that are the size of like a small cigarette pack that do that. But I'm yet to see what we were in the end phases of building, which is something that's the size of like, an actual cigarette, where you could actually put a small amount of plant matter. And that's another great advantage of vaporization over smoking, when you smoke, you burn it and you're done. With vaporization, that same tiny amount of plant matter can last you weeks and weeks and weeks. So it's much more efficient on your materials as well. It feels cleaner.

32:39

So yeah. Well, thank

Joseph Paneta  32:42

you so much. I really appreciate you taking the time. And thank you for sending me the materials. I'll be parsing through those. And I'll send this to you before we're ready to do anything with it. So you have a final approval and blessing. Appreciate it. Thank you, Joe. Thank you so much. And I look forward to spending more time with you in Tucson. That'll be interesting.

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Joseph Panetta Links:

www.linkedin.com/in/jpanetta

https://www.locc.me/

Joseph@locc.me

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About - Shaahin Cheyene -

Hi, my name is Shaahin Cheyene and I help individuals and owners transform average sales into extraordinary income using my predictable sales system that never fails. Whether you have zero online sales, want to start on Amazon, or have products that just need a push, I can show you how to do it. If you're interested in getting more sales with predictability, watch my FREE CASE STUDY Now!

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